What is the penalty for circumventing emissions regulations?
Canada does not have a uniform certification standard for off-highway equipment, while regulations for on-highway equipment differ by province.
Digdeep inquired about the fines for bypassing emissions requirements. As per my last check, the fine can be either $27,500 or $37,500. It is crucial to ensure that the emissions system is correctly maintained when servicing the vehicle, as failing to do so can result in hefty fines. Remember, any changes made to the vehicle must comply with emissions regulations to avoid penalties.
Imagine owning a tier 4 final piece of equipment, such as a skid loader, only to have its electronics and emissions systems malfunction five years down the line. In a scenario where the wiring harness burns out or the motor seizes up, you might consider salvaging the vehicle and replacing its components with a 4bt Cummins engine, complete with a 12v fuel solenoid and ignition switch. This modification could involve making the controls manual and eliminating the need for computer systems. However, if you reside in California, you may wonder if you'll face repercussions from the authorities for bypassing emissions regulations. This raises questions for individuals like Ruger_556 who may be unsure of how to navigate the complexities of maintaining an emissions system and avoiding legal consequences for non-compliance. How can one accurately assess the state of their emissions system during routine maintenance, and what measures can be taken to mitigate the risk of non-compliance with government regulations?
- 28-10-2024
- crane operator
There doesn't seem to be a delete kit available yet for them. Recently, while doing a lot of snow removal with my friend's svl95-2 that had under 500 hours, we encountered multiple issues that forced us to disconnect the battery several times in one night to trick the system into functioning properly. After completing the snow removal, we had to take the machine to the dealer for repairs. It's frustrating how we are lured into investing in the latest technology, only to find that it doesn't stand the test of time. The ongoing problem with emissions regulations is causing issues for trucks and machinery of all brands. It appears that dealers are benefiting from the increased business resulting from these problems.
I'm interested to know, what was the ultimate cause of the problem?
Canuck Digger mentioned that there may not be a delete kit available yet for emission-related issues with machines such as the SVL95-2. Despite snow removal efforts, the machine experienced consistent problems that required multiple battery disconnects to temporarily fix. Eventually, the machine had to be taken to the dealer for further inspection. The constant need for costly repairs on newer models raises concerns about the longevity of such equipment. Emission regulations are putting a strain on vehicles and machinery, leading to increased business for dealers. It appears that issues with emissions systems are prevalent across different brands. What was the final diagnosis for this particular problem?
Canuck Digger mentioned that there currently isn't a delete kit available for the emissions systems on some machines. During a recent snow removal job with a Kubota SVL95-2 with less than 500 hours, they experienced multiple issues with the EGR/filter/regen system, leading to them having to disconnect the battery multiple times to reset the system. After struggling to keep the machine running, it was eventually taken to the dealer for repairs. This experience raised concerns about the reliability and longevity of modern machines and the impact of emissions regulations on their performance. The prevalence of these issues across different brands suggests a widespread problem. If you are experiencing similar problems with your Kubota engine, please reach out to discuss potential EGR DPF solutions.
MDP offers an EGR DPF solution for Kubota engines. Please send us a message with your machine details for more information. Thank you for choosing Kubota SVL 75.
MDP offers solutions for EGR, DPF, and DEF systems in a variety of agricultural, construction, tractor, and automotive vehicles. Please provide machine details for personalized advice on resolving these issues. Looking for solutions to delete emissions components on a B3350? Contact us for more information.
I ponder whether a legal concept could be established referring to this as a "regulatory taking." According to Wikipedia, a "regulatory taking" occurs when government regulations impose limitations on the use of private property to an extent that significantly diminishes the property owners' ability to derive economic value or utility from their property. This situation closely resembles the circumstances at hand. This issue has persisted for a decade now, giving them ample time to address it.
I regret to inform you that the engine's warranty will be void if the Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) is tampered with or removed.
A thought-provoking question arises: Is it justifiable for a unit to remain usable despite higher costs associated with its use? This scenario differs from zoning regulations that restrict land use to its natural state. If the validity of the statistics underlying a regulation, like the case of a California statistician linking diesel exhaust soot to premature deaths, can be challenged, a possible case for compensation for increased costs may be made. However, undertaking such research would require substantial financial resources, likely facing opposition from both the government and manufacturers.
The phrase I am focusing on is "deprives property owners of economically reasonable use". When a truck owned by an Owner/Operator (O/O) starts experiencing issues such as injector tip deformation leading to soot and dust buildup in cylinders, damage to catalysts and Diesel Particulate Filters (DPF), and clogging of Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) and crankcase filters, it can lead to significant financial strain. These costly repairs must be paid for out of the operator's operating cash flow, potentially leading to bankruptcy. This situation seems straightforward to me.
I concur, but government officials may argue that it is a warranty issue that lies with the manufacturer, who in turn blames the government due to regulatory requirements. It's a classic Catch-22 situation.
Just like the evolution of emissions systems in cars from the 1970s to the late 1980s, advancements in diesel emissions equipment have also come a long way. In the early days, vehicles struggled with catalytic converters, smog pumps, and other components that hindered performance and fuel efficiency. However, by the late 1980s, improvements were made, leading to more powerful and reliable vehicles with better fuel economy.
Today, diesel engines with Tier 4 Final technology are able to meet emissions standards without the need for EGR systems. The SCR and DPF units have become more compact and dependable, allowing for enhanced overall performance. Despite the complex nature of some components like VGT turbos and auto shift transmissions, the industry is continuously working on streamlining these systems to meet emissions regulations effectively.
As technology continues to progress, it is likely that we will see further advancements in emissions control for diesel engines, ultimately achieving a balance between performance and environmental responsibility. Though there are still challenges to overcome, including the elimination of EGR systems while maintaining compliance with emissions standards, the future looks promising for cleaner and more efficient diesel vehicles.
In the late 1980s, progress was made in vehicle technology, with the 1989 F-150 achieving 20 mpg and boasting efficient fuel injection. The introduction of OBD1 and computer diagnostics marked a significant milestone. Fast forward to 2003, diesel emissions technology has evolved significantly, with companies now offering Tier 4 Final engines that meet emissions standards without EGR. The size and reliability of SCR and DPF units have greatly improved. However, the complexity of emissions packages for different engine sizes can be confusing in the industry. From recommendations like "20 kW go for Isuzu, but for 60 kW opt for Kubota and for 80 kW choose Deutz", it is clear that each option comes with its own unique features like ECMs, injectors with computer trim codes, and cooled EGR systems.
Both Cummins and IVECO offer Tier 4 Final engines without the need for Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) technology.
Cummins' lack of dealer support and the reliance on dealers to perform all work can be frustrating. The 3.8L engine may also be too large for some preferences. In contrast, Iveco is a less common sight, with a dealer network that may lack the expertise to effectively service vehicles designed by Italian engineers.
It seems like achieving happiness in your current job is a challenge. Maybe it's time to explore new career opportunities. It's unlikely that emission equipment will become obsolete anytime soon.
I refuse to accept this unsatisfactory situation, and I will continue to advocate for change. Expressing my views comes at no cost, and there is potential for a wide audience to hear them. The current regulations negatively impact consumers without providing clear benefits supported by reliable data. If Los Angeles wants Tier 4 standards, they are welcome to adhere to them. Those of us residing in mountainous areas were content with Tier 2 regulations. Despite the implementation of Tier 4, the air quality remains unchanged. It is evident that we must resist restrictions at times to preserve our freedoms, especially as opposing forces persist in their efforts, now that Tier 4 standards are in place.
While I support the goal of reducing emissions for cleaner air, it is essential to strike a balance between reliability and clean air standards. The biggest challenge we face in terms of reliability lies in the Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) system. Eliminating the EGR system and focusing on reducing NOx emissions post-turbo would greatly improve engine performance. The use of EGR is essentially choking the engine with its own exhaust residue.
I came up with a clever response to this ongoing conversation. A simple solution would be to remove a single letter. It's common knowledge that companies produce inferior products for "Less Regulated Countries". By dropping the "r", we could call them Less Regulated Counties instead. This way, there would be no need for Tier 4 regulations in my area, given the issues faced by LA county.
Hey there, BV! Have you considered utilizing a computer program to remove tier 4 emissions controls? There's a guy on the east coast who is quite busy with this process. He recently upgraded an ASV RT120, eliminating tier 4 components and boosting it to 145hp. Surprisingly, the machine now consumes less fuel per hour, which seems like a positive outcome for the environment, don't you think?
Do you believe that Tier 4 Final is truly the end of government regulations in the industry? The blame for this continuous evolution should be directed towards manufacturers who were well aware of impending changes. Companies like Navistar and Cat seemed unprepared for this shift, reminiscent of the struggles faced by auto makers in the 1970s.
Nowadays, there are advanced gas engines available with 400hp, equipped with effective emissions control mechanisms. These engines can last up to 200,000 miles without requiring spark plug replacements. Despite these advancements, the controversial practice of "deleting" emissions systems is rarely discussed.
Tones mentioned a man on the east coast who is very busy with this task. Be cautious, as EPA fines can reach up to $37,500 per system. In this region, dealers are reluctant to accept trucks for trade if they have been altered. Selling or servicing such vehicles could result in fines for the dealers.
According to Wes J, it's crucial to avoid getting caught as EPA fines can begin at $37,500 per system. In this region, dealers are adamant about not accepting trucks for trade if they have undergone deletion modifications. They risk hefty fines for both selling and servicing such vehicles. It seems like the environmental regulations hold a strong grip on businesses in this industry.
Tones exclaimed, "It seems like the environmental extremists have you trapped!" Unfortunately, I didn't create the regulations. However, I also cannot afford to waste $37,500.
We are currently dealing with a Kubota SVL 95-2S displaying error codes for the DEF sensor (Adblue quality) and the SCR sensor (contact dealer). Despite draining the DEF tank twice, the issue persists. If you have any tips or solutions, please share. Your assistance is highly valued. Thank you. - Ricl
MDP offers efficient EGR DPF solutions for Kubota engines. If you are experiencing issues like the one with your Case 621F, feel free to contact us with your machine details. We can provide a solution to alleviate any problems you may be facing.
A crane operator raised a scenario regarding the future maintenance of tier 4 final equipment like a skid loader. In five years, the electronic and emissions components may malfunction or get damaged. In this case, the operator proposed salvaging the equipment, removing the emissions-related parts, and replacing the motor with a 4bt Cummins engine to make the equipment manual and computer-free. The concern was raised about potential repercussions from California's emissions enforcement authorities. Additionally, a question was posed about how a person performing routine oil changes would know if the emissions system is intact and how a government agency could verify this information. It was mentioned that California regulators conduct exhaust inspections and impose fines for violations.
There has been a lot of discussion surrounding DEF and EGR delete on HEF engines. Whether we like it or not, Tier 4 Final regulations are here to stay and will only become more stringent in the future. Unless manufacturers stand up to the EPA, there is no escaping it. While I agree that the technology may not be as efficient as before (I also find EGR on a diesel ridiculous), there are steps that can be taken to minimize issues. One of the most common problems with Tier 4 engines is skipping regens, running out of DEF fluid, or using old fluid. It is crucial for owners to be properly educated by dealers on how to maintain their engines, and for mechanics to receive adequate training. In my experience working for dealerships, I have noticed that they often prioritize training external parties over their own technicians. Personally, I do not have a major issue with Tier 4 as I understand it and know how to troubleshoot it. In most cases, the issues stem from operator error rather than product or software defects.
Paul Council commented on the prevalent discussions surrounding DEF and EGR delete on HEF engines in the era of Tier 4 final regulations. While some may not be fans of the new standards, they are here to stay and will only become more stringent. To address common issues with Tier 4 engines, it is crucial to follow certain practices such as not skipping regens, maintaining adequate levels of DEF fluid, and using clean fluid. Education on these matters is vital for both owners and mechanics to prevent operational errors.
As someone who has experience with Tier 4i and Tier 4 Final skid steers, including a CTL and wheeled machine, I have found that proper operation can lead to minimal issues. Many challenges with DPF machines stem from operator errors such as insufficient idling in cold weather, DEF depletion, and failure to warm up the machines adequately. This lack of understanding has prompted the release of compact machines and backhoes under 75 hp that do not require DEF. With a diverse workforce and rapid turnover in the industry, educating operators on the nuances of DEF machines presents a significant obstacle.
During my time managing a rental fleet, the Kubota SVL90-2 was a common headache due to frequent DPF issues. The problem often stemmed from operators running the machine at low RPM. Typically, rental salesmen do not provide in-depth training on operating the equipment. It wasn't until I arrived to address the issue that I advised them to "run the engine hard" to prevent these issues.
KSSS emphasized the importance of educating buyers on proper machine operation to prevent issues with Tier 4i and Tier 4 Final skid steers, CTLs, and wheeled machines. With personal experience running these machines for hours without any problems, KSSS highlighted the common struggles with DPF machines and shared the key factors leading to repeated problems identified by mechanics. The lack of proper machine warming, DEF management, and operator knowledge in some sectors pose challenges in the industry, resulting in the release of compact machines and backhoes under 75 hp that only run DOC. In regions with cold weather like parts of Canada, issues with frozen DEF lines and tanks are common, even when following dealership recommendations. It is essential for operators to understand the intricacies of DEF machines to ensure proper functioning and longevity of equipment.
When your machine shuts down, the DEF (diesel exhaust fluid) pump is responsible for pulling the majority of the fluid back into the tank, which is approximately 90% water. Simultaneously, it creates a vacuum to check for any potential leaks in the system. The tank is equipped with heater lines connected to the engine's cooling system. It is possible to operate the equipment even with frozen DEF fluid, as long as you avoid extended periods of idling. Active use of the machine should generate enough heat in the exhaust system to trigger a passive regeneration process, eliminating the need for additional DEF fluid as mentioned by user willie59.
One interesting aspect I want to mention is our experience with a new Morooka dumper equipped with a Cat engine that we rented for a job in West Virginia. While on site, we encountered a DEF issue that required the assistance of a local Cat mechanic. After speaking with various individuals involved, it became clear that the job site regulations mandated operators to turn off the equipment battery disconnect switches when shutting down their machines. This action inadvertently disrupted the DEF purge cycle, leading to the Cat system malfunctioning upon the next start up. Machines with ECU/keyswitch controlled battery disconnects did not face this issue, highlighting the importance of educating end users at all times.
Paul Council explained that diesel exhaust fluid (DEF) is primarily composed of water, accounting for about 90% of its composition. When you shut down your equipment and hear the pump running, it means the DEF pump is refilling the tank by drawing the fluid back in and conducting a leak test by creating a vacuum within the system. The tank is equipped with heater lines connected to the engine's cooling system, allowing you to continue operating even if the DEF fluid is frozen, as long as you avoid extended idling periods. In instances of intense operation, the hot exhaust can facilitate a passive regeneration process, eliminating the need for DEF fluid.
However, extreme cold conditions like -40 degrees can cause freezing and damage, as the heaters only function when the engine is running. These systems are more suited for milder climates rather than harsh Northern environments, prompting many to opt for system deletion. Some manufacturers, including Caterpillar, have reintroduced machines with tier 3 engines in response to these challenges.
My v3800 was removed and the dealer program was utilized for emissions testing, disabling unnecessary functions. They also proceeded with an egr and cooler deletion, however, warranty is not included.
245dlc pointed out that in cold climates like the northern regions, temperatures can drop to -40 degrees, causing things to freeze and break. The heaters in machines only work when the engine is running, making it challenging to operate in such extreme conditions. Many people are choosing to remove these systems due to their inefficiency in colder climates. Some manufacturers, including Caterpillar, have re-released machines with tier 3 engines to address this issue. However, being located 90 miles from Yellowstone, the individual is well-aware of the challenges of extreme cold. While diesel exhaust fluid (DEF) can complicate things and freeze at low temperatures, it is designed to thaw out while the machine continues to operate. It is crucial to avoid idling at low RPM for extended periods to prevent issues. Additionally, regulations require engines to be Tier compliant, so bypassing this requirement by using older engines is not a viable solution. This highlights the importance of having Tier 4 Final engines in modern machines.
The varying environmental regulations in different regions can impact equipment performance significantly. I have observed numerous individuals invest in new machinery due to Tier 3 engine requirements. For example, a powerline crew acquired a new Cat 420F backhoe, while another individual purchased a New Holland C238 CTL with a Tier 3 engine. In 2018, we also rented a JD180GLC equipped with a Tier 3 engine. The upgrade to tier 3 engines ensures compliance with emission standards and improves overall equipment efficiency.
I purchased a brand new 2018 model with tier 3 emissions in November 2017. However, as of January 1, 2019, it is no longer possible to acquire a tier 3 model in Canada unless a dealership has one in stock. One way to distinguish a tier 3 John Deere backhoe is by its smaller exhaust pipe diameter, as opposed to the tier 4 models. Check with your local dealership for availability.
- 30-10-2024
- Canadian_digger
I recently purchased a 2018 model with tier 3 specifications in November 2017. It is worth noting that as of January 1, 2019, tier 3 models are no longer available in Canada, unless a dealership has a new unit in stock. This makes finding a tier 3 model a rare opportunity for interested buyers.
- 30-10-2024
- Canadian_digger
At first, I couldn't believe it when you all mentioned Tier 3 in relation to brand new equipment. However, after inspecting a new 420F2 backhoe, I was surprised to see what appeared to be a mechanical throttle linkage on the injection pump. It made me reconsider my initial skepticism about Tier 3 compliance in modern machinery.
The 180G John Deere excavator is a top-tier equipment in its class, ideal for heavy-duty tasks.
I specifically chose my 2018 NH C227 because it is one of the last non-tier 4 models available. Starting in January 2019, only tier 4 models will be produced. I plan to continue rebuilding everything until I retire. Most of my equipment is from 2017 or newer, except for my dump truck. I hope to keep everything running smoothly for at least another decade, although it may just be wishful thinking.
Willie59 shared his experience with rental fleets, noting that the Kubota SVL90-2 often faced DPF issues. These issues were frequently caused by operators running the machines at low RPM. The lack of proper training from rental salesmen led to problems that could only be fixed by running the engine at high speeds.
Recently, an E 9400 error code caused a shutdown on an SVL90-2 machine. The manual advised contacting a dealer immediately, but finding a diagnostic manual for this specific code proved challenging. After spending over 56 minutes on the phone with Kubota corporate, the availability of a relevant manual was still uncertain. Another dealer even mentioned that there may not be a manual covering these specific codes. The question remains: Is there a diagnostic manual available for these error codes?
willie59 commented that during his time managing a rental fleet, the Kubota SVL90-2 was a common problem due to DPF issues. The primary cause was operators using the machine at low RPM. The lack of proper training from rental salesmen contributed to this issue. When willie59 fixed the problem, he advised the operators to run the engine at higher speeds to prevent future issues. This is important information for potential buyers considering purchasing a Kubota SVL90-2. Are there any other common issues with this model, particularly related to the v3800 engine?
In response, wmshooke reported experiencing an intermittent E 9400 error on the SVL90-2, resulting in the machine shutting down. The manual recommended contacting a dealer immediately, but wmshooke struggled to find a diagnostic manual for this specific error code. Despite seeking assistance from Kubota corporate and other dealers, a suitable manual was not readily available. wmshooke questioned if there was a diagnostic manual specifically for these error codes and if anyone had successfully resolved this issue. Have you managed to solve this problem?
User wmshooke is experiencing an intermittent E 9400 error on their SVL90-2 machine, causing it to shut down. The manual advises contacting the dealer right away, but there seems to be a lack of information on diagnosing these codes. Despite a 56-minute call with Kubota corporate, no clear answers were provided on the availability of a diagnostic manual. Another dealer also mentioned the absence of a manual covering these codes. Does anyone have access to a diagnostic manual for these codes? Additionally, wmshooke is asking for the engine type in the machine, as they may have a reference book that could be helpful.
I encountered a code E 9400 on SV:90-2, causing the machine to shut off and not turn over (only a click sound). After letting it sit for an hour, it started up again but was running rough. I managed to bring it back to the workshop yesterday. When I tried to start it today to move it, it would turn over but not start. Suspecting an issue with the fuel system, I replaced the fuel filter and cleaned all its components. After starting it up, the machine is now running smoothly. I used it for an hour today without any issues or error codes.